Tuesday 080708
"Angie"
For time:
100 Pull-ups
100 Push-ups
100 Sit-ups
100 Squats
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All diets work: the importance of calories
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Coach Burgener and Jacinto at the Games
Looking through Lyle McDonald's article are we to conclude that the official CrossFit position of advocating the Paleo/Zone eating systems is basically a trick to simple caloric regulation for the adherents or that even the upper echelons of CrossFit are also deluded?
hey moon, Crossfit advocates Zone with or without Paleo restrictions for its athletes. It also advocates tuning it up or down in terms of calories depending on the athlete. Zone diets are calorie restricted for most people; Crossfit leaves no misconceptions about that. There's a great video of Nicole Carrol talking about nutrition and she makes this point over and over. Many of the top tier athletes on Zone however go to 5x fat block to bring the themselves out of caloric deficit and maintain body weight and composition.
Moon,
That is exactly what people who are critics of the Zone/Paleo say.
Court-- Thank you for a great kettlebell class last night. It's been a while since I've done a kettlebell WOD. Thanks for correcting some bad form habits I've picked up. I am now sore in places I forgot existed.
To the 8pm elements class last night-- great work. Keep practicing your air squats.
Brett - "Crossfit leaves no misconceptions about that."
I have to disagree with that as I may be one of the misconceived...wait...nevermind. Anyway, at my Cert, I do not feel that we were taught that the key takeaway from learning about Zone strictly concerned the caloric amounts (Sam, Michelle, if I dozed off and missed that, let me know). I also have notes from the cert that speaks to starch/carbohydrate sensitivity and related matters - which are the key rationale of Dr. Sears' work.
But beyond my own personal experience, it seems to me that if one endorses the Zone (or Paleo) Diet as CrossFit does then it seems that, barring clear comment to the contrary, there is an implicit advocacy of the foundations upon which either are based. Otherwise it seems that CrossFit should equally push Weight Watchers, South Beach, NutraSystem or any other reasonably-balanced diet plan with the stated message of "It's really not about the foods, it's the calories."
I am not saying that one should simply accept Mr. McDonald's article as truth - even if it is *clearly* written on the Interwebs. My above post was meant to take his position and apply it to a CrossFit perspective. As far as I can tell asking such questions is at least part of the point of linking to the article on this CrossFit site. In that same spirit of debate, his argument does seem to present a valid counter-position to the "Zone/Paleo" stance advocated by CrossFit.
I have not seen the Nicole Carroll video you are speaking about but I have watched a couple CFJ Mar 08 preview videos on the main site of her speaking about nutrition. While both Zone and Paleo are mentioned frequently - and are presented as THE way to make gains in performance "This [Zone/Paleo] is: 'I want 10 seconds off my Fran time.'" - while distilling them down to their simply being a vehicle of caloric restriction is not. Seems that would have been worth a mention.
I'm copying and pasting a comment from yesterday's blog post that I figured no one would see otherwise. Could some of you with more time on your hands than I currently have take a crack at answering a few of these questions? Thanks, guys!
Andrew Kortina, from Court's newest Elements Workshop class that started last night, writes:
To answer one of Andrew's questions.
Pullup negatives are an eccentric exercise. Basically this means the muscle is lengthening while still exerting force.
Quoting from wikipedia: "Muscles undergoing heavy eccentric loading suffer greater damage when overloaded (such as during muscle building or strength training exercise) as compared to concentric loading. When eccentric contractions are used in weight training they are normally called "negatives". During a concentric contraction muscle fibers slide across each other pulling the Z-lines together. During an eccentric contraction, the filaments slide past each other the opposite way, though the actual movement of the myosin heads during an eccentric contraction is not known. Exercise featuring a heavy eccentric load can actually support a greater weight (muscles are approximately 10% stronger during eccentric contractions than during concentric contractions) and also results in greater muscular damage and delayed onset muscle soreness one to two days after training. "
Eccentric muscle movements have been implicated in leading to greater chance of rhadbo. See this link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200103/ai_n8943523/pg_3
Remember Moon, CF promotes the Zone/Paleo diet as the best for performance, not weight loss (as they arent really concerned too much about that). Mr McDonald is speaking solely on the basis of weight loss diets. If we were talking strictly about that, then yes, WW, SouthBeach, Zone, etc would be all as effective. Now if Zone/Paleo is the best diet for performance, that's clearly debateble, but as far as CF goes, they have had ample research to prove their hypothesis on the matter.
As for carbs in a post-workout meal.
To cut a long story short. Your body is severely depleted of energy (glucose and glycogen). Your body both needs and wants nutrients post workout for it to grow and function correctly.
If your body is low on blood sugar post workout, this can lead to an increase in blood cortisol levels. Cortisol is a stress hormone. It decreases amino acid uptake by muscle, thus inhibiting protein synthesis
Carbs post workout have also been shown to increase growth hormone levels which will increase muscle hypertrophy (muscle growth). Obviously to facilitate muscle growth, protein is needed too.
For more full explanations see the wikipedia article on Cortisol ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol ) or this article: http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/postwo.htm
Moon,
The aforementioned Nicole Carroll video does clearly state that Zone is a calorie restricting diet. However, I think that the most important message that Xfit attempts to communicate regarding diet is that Zone provides adequate macro-nutrient ratios and calories for performance, first and foremost.
An added bonus, due to working out intensely and eating cleaner foods as prescribed by the Zone, is health/body composition.
However, if one’s goal is health/body comp rather than performance, I would not necessarily say the Zone is best (it could be -- who really knows these things for sure). For me, the Zone treats the body as if it’s a command and control machine, providing for the same caloric/macro-nutrient intake every single day. Our bodies are too dynamic for such a system. Secondly, although labeled as “unfavorable carbs” the Zone chart does have blocks for bagels, muffins, cereal and pasta. Moreover, it labels oatmeal, beans and lentils as “good carbs” and milk as a “good combo item.” Many people do not agree. Of course, these opinions are from a health perspective rather than a performance perspective. I would direct those interested in this topic to the piece that Robb Wolff wrote a while back on marrying the concepts of IFing and more carb restricted diets to Xfit – your times will suffer, but it may be better for weight loss and overall health.
The starch/carbohydrate sensitivity and insulin/glucagon points, as well as the many other related topics, are very relevant for the Zone. I would argue that it’s not the best at addressing these issues, but certainly better than Weight Watchers. The South Beach diet is probably okay, but the others are full of artificial cheat meals and starchy carbs – wow, only 2 Weight Watcher points – but what about the 60g of carbs!?
To me, if you want to perform at a high level, as defined by a sub 3 minute Fran, the Zone is a good bet. If you want to lose weight or correct a health issue, I would recommend scrapping the zone for a more random intake of calories, IFing, and eliminating milk and grains.
One last thought, McDonald’s piece is pretty obvious – if one cuts out a macro-nutrient group, they are eating less, so they lose weight – great. However, I am a believer, through reading some of the research and personal experience, that there is a metabolic advantage in cutting or at least managing carb intake, as opposed to cutting fat.
Just tried to add another comment but because I added more than one link it got censored until it gets approved.
Allison, can you do this?
I still tend to think that the Zone is a little to peckish on calories for one to build lean muscle mass (especially in the protein area) but is excellent for performance due to the "leveling" out of nutrients, and is why I think it works so well from a CF point of view. Im not so sure I have yet to see a metabolic advantage, as the research on that is still on the fence, but I know I feel better and perform better when I keep the grains to a nil. Dairy on the other hand seems to help me perform a bit better (not milk but dairy products)but I think that is more to do with the balancing out of macronutrients inherent in dairy products. When you throw the heavy lifting in there, it really helps to have a calorie surplus, because when they arent there, its a bitch and a half to put up near ME loads, but with that comes to the danger of added body fat.
Justin,
I certainly agree with the notion that when lifting heavy or doing any kind of long metcon one needs extra calories. Dairy is fairly energy dense so it's going to help for sure.
I know how bad it can be when the calories are low, almost dropping a 205# thruster on my head due to dizziness and completing a personal worst filthy 50 by nearly 12 minutes.
And I think you're right, metabolic advantage is not definitively proven in the scientific circles, from what I gather as a non-scientist.
Just wanted to say great job to Gillian and Jacinto. I was filming both of you during the games and you did outstanding jobs.
Mike- great to meet you and hang with you a for a little while at dinner and I'll have to try your Tabata squat to chair technique on anyone I meet that is resistant to CrossFit. That was definitely fun to watch.
To the rest-- how can I get one of those t-shirts... The hostile workout environment is awesome... I need one too!
-Paul Szoldra
"StrikeFO"
CrossFit Camp Pendleton
"What are strategies for controlling momentum of the descent? Is it related to the pushing away at the top that is always recommended?"
Andrew
Kipping is sort of an extension of a natural instinct that emerges when you tire from doing pull ups. Before coming to CrossFit and actively pursuing kip development, I think I automatically built up the shoulder strength and flexibility by doing fast sets of dead hangs. That is, when I was fatiguing on say, my final set of 10, I would perform my pull ups faster in order to finish my set and cut short the amount of time I would have to hang on the bar. As I tired, I would aim to spend as little time "in the hole" as possible and I was essentially bouncing out of the bottom of my range of motion.
Pushing away at the top will initiate a more arcing/swinging descent which will feel easier on your shoulders. I would also recommend for you to poke your head past your arms/shoulders (sort of similar to exaggerating the head thrust on an overhead press) and really get yourself into the full body arch at the bottom of the swing. That might help you to transfer your momentum more horizontally than vertically.
paul Zsoldra
If you send me an address, I'll mail one you to you
my email is jboniila5@yahoo.com
sorry for the type o
seems as if im the only one posting about the WOD. Though, it does make for interesting reading :)
i did "angelina" today (50 reps) because i needed to ease in. I feel so much better since i pulled my broken heart out of my ass.
16:06
Apparently the best method for losing weight is keeping a food diary. I just saw a piece on Good Morning America about it. I also happened to blog about it before I saw the piece. Everybody is copying my shit!
As RX'ed
17:40
Pukie was nice enough to greet me *after* this workout.
Keith, do we erase our food diary entries if they suffer regurgitation?
Excellent question, Dan. I guess you should journal what goes in as well as what goes out. I wouldn't erase it. Nice time! You definitely earned a second lunch.
Once again the encounter between the internet and comedy fails. I'll still take my second lunch, however.
Dear Keith,
My roommate doesn't like it when I use her kitchen scale to help me stay true to your complete input/output weighing program. I've offered to buy another scale that could just stay in the bathroom but this idea doesn't seem to placate her either. Is she just being picky? What should I do?
Signed,
Can't Hold It Much Longer!
Moon
I slept through most of that lecture. Iremeber w ehad beef jerky as our snacks. and apples. I also remember they said if you eat a banana and a muffin for breakfast you will feel radically worse than if you eat some protein and other zone stuff and then that guy who raised his hand and said he ate a banana and a muffin for breakfast and he felt like "ass". No really I remember nothing about caloric intake. Bu that may be also because I spent the whole time trying to tell sam that Pat Sherwood looked just like Ben Stiller.
What I can say is that I was always starving on the zone and could not do it. So there obviously was reducton in caloric intake but when I did Paleo before the cert I basically ate steak,eggs almond butter, green vegetables and greek yogurt. I was not trying to lose weight. But I lost 5 lbs in 4 weeks. It had everything to do with reduction in caloric intake bc I was so full from all that protein I barely ate anywhere near as much as I normally did.
That said I had way more energy and got a lot of PRs.
You are incorrect Michelle... Pat Sherwood looks like Silar from Heroes, not Ben Stiller.
Dear CHIML
I suggest that instead of weighing the outgoing matter directly, you merely weigh yourself before and after purging. Also for more accurate volume measurements you can put use a sharpie to mark the inside of your bowl and take accurate readings of the change in water level.
Scientifically yours,
Keith
The Zone is good for CrossFitters because it improves performance. CrossFit is about results which is why Greg, Lauren and other CrossFitters encourage use of the diet.
It is a calorie restrictive diet. A side effect of the diet is fat loss. It is very possible to gain muscle.
Hunger is another side effect at first if you're like me and used to eating WAY too much food. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. The huger pains subside and the performance improves. Energy goes up and recovery is faster.
I was a Non believer before really getting coached on the zone and doing it the right way. I was screwing it up left and right and I wasn't consistent. Results don't come that way. After a month of having Lisa, Greg and Lauren put food in front of my face and say "Eat This" I've had excellent results:
Body weight OHS x 18, faster running, rowing and workout times, quicker recovery after workouts and lots and lots of energy. ALSO... fat loss and muscle gain.
That's my little testimonial. I hated the ZONE at first. I cried at night time and begged for food for a week. I got over it and now the hunger is a non-issue. I feel better than I ever have and can't wait to see the results in the future
29:40 with the huge red band and push ups mostly on my knees.
Many thanks to Brian for saving me from myself on those squats :)
A-nyc you got 18x bodyweight OHS?! NICE!!
well, 18 x 125. A couple pounds short of BW. But I had gas in the tank. Probably could have got another rep or two.
Anyway, I'm in NYC temporarily to visit my family and get ready to move somewhere else. I want Santa Cruz so badly it hurts.
I want to check out the new spots while I'm here.
I left my phone in California so Mike you'll have to call me with your phone number and give me some directions..
See you all soon.
Congratulations, ANYC! You've been after that goal for a while now.
Regarding the diet, in my opinion if you mix Zoning/Paleo with Intermittent Fasting you have a deadly combination of fat-loss and performance increase. I IF with 2 meals a day at the most and I "Zone"/Paleo (mostly watching my sugar and bread/wheat/etc intake) my meals for the most part. This is from personal experience and other anectdotal experience but I have noticed great improvements in body composition as well as performance with this combo. I honestly hate to eat more than twice a day; it makes me feel sick. One or two large meals with some snacks interspersed in there is all you need to get by. I feel great, I look great, and my performance has never been better. I always feel ready for my workouts. Just my two cents.
25:39
pr is still around 22
42 min. medium band pullups. Thanks to coach p, hari, zach kevin for motivation.
Yet another workout that I wouldn't have finished if I werent at the black box.
Sorry, all, to hop in so late; the constraints of my 'real job' keep me off the blog for much of the day.
That said, Lyle's article strikes me as ridiculous on a lot of levels. I realize that provocative writing is key to web traffic, but his oversimplification (essentially, 'less calories are all that matter') runs completely contrary to the best science on the subject - and, in fact, even to the science he quotes repeatedly in many of his earlier diet books.
While it's a nice idea to believe that weight gain is a linear system (bodyweight change = calories in - calories out), the reality of lab research and clinical experience indicates that real people are far more complex.
Consider the extreme example of 'wasting' - the high-velocity loss of body mass associated with later stages of diseases like tuberculosis, diarrhea, AIDS and cancer. In all of those cases, although patients are fed intravenously tens of thousands of calories daily, they continue to rapidly lose weight, with muscle-mass the category fastest lost.
It's interesting to note that Dr. Scott Connelly, the founder of MetRX, was actually a Harvard med school professor and ER doc who specialized in dealing with wasting in acute trauma cases, and who developed a lot of the technology behind MetRX in response to that very issue.
More broadly, the question of 'calorie partitioning' - how your body uses the calories you ingest - is a complex and increasingly well-studied topic. Much of the recent research has focused in on that complexity, on the interaction between food and the endocrine system, and especially on the role of hormones like leptin.
And, most ironically, much of that research has been best translated into real-world diet prescription by - you guessed it! - Lyle Mcdonald.
21:18 (PR)
Congratz on the PR, Hari.
I'll pick up the diet thing tomorrow but I do appreciate those who took the time to post their experiences.
I don't know- I lost weight on the Zone diet as well but was always hungry. Somehow eating steak every day made me less hungry and my energy and performance were way better on the pure paleo than on the pure zone. and i didnt find it too hard to follow. that zone pocket book basically spells it our for you so long as you can read three lines. I just could not take the hunger
either way i reduced caloric intake and both times i lost fat and gained lean muscle but i dont think that every diet is necessarily the "perfect" one for every person. I think that changing your diet is 100% necessary to get better if not optimum results but I am not all that convinced that it is one size fits all.
and moon- stay away from ANY diet that does not include a mudslide at least three times a week. you are sure to fail on that one. i did miserably. in fact that was one of the best things i learned fromthe cert.
sam (bad) nice to see you last night in manhattan. oh wait-u were not there. right. :)
Great job on OHS AllisonNYC!! You're a beast! (In a training way of course)
Angie
17:37
pullups on the fat bar which seems fatter than the old one.
All, thanks for the answers and links to the questions I raised.