Moon: "Crunches are to abmat sit ups what abmat sit ups are to GHD".

Not true.

Abmat sit ups are full ROM. We start the movement with a neutral spine and end in the same place we do when using the GHD. Except with the AbMat situps (especially the butterfly style) we're eliminating the use of other muscles to pull ourselves up (Hips and legs)

GHD sit ups use the hips and legs. When done properly the knee is extended on the way up. It's not just the abs that are working..

Friday Rest Night Dinner
May 9 at 7:30 PM
(Two weeks from Today)
Location to be determined shortly.

Who is in?

this morning at nysc
225, 235, 245, 255, 265

Deadlifts are definitely one of my goats.

Goat number one is heavy kettlebell swings.

Hari - I'm in.

A2 - FYI Rob and I hit on this a little in yesterday's post.

All - sorry about the tense shifts in Michelle's response. It's early.

It was great seeing everyone last night. I'm very anxious to get back into the groove.

Brendan and Kevin, 17min Angie is fast. nice.

Leslie and I are in for dinner...

And the thread on the mainsite board that Rob linked yesterday was exactly where my comments were geared from yesterday. The idea of changing things up a bit for the varied factor of programming. Of course it can be equally said that who are we to tinker with perfectly good programming.

Robzilla Goat:

Run for 20 seconds
Do Burpees for 10 seconds
Repeat until a mile has been run

Record total time and total number of burpees

Couldn't it be said that although the spine remains neutral, the hips are hyperextended at the bottom of a GHD sit-up; that the abdominal muscles and hip flexors are more extended than at the bottom of a regular or Ab-mat situp; and therefore that the range of motion is greater? After all, the trunk breaks horizontal, something it can't do when you're sitting on the ground.

Lately I've found that anchored incline sit-ups really work the hip flexors more than the abs. Since they're puny muscles, I hit failure pretty quickly (especially with added weight), which sucks. And the day after, my abs are like new. Seems like it barely qualifies as an ab exercise.

Power Clean x 3 x 3: 135, 165, 185
Clean pull x 3 x 3: 235, 235, 255
DL x 3 x 5: 315, 345, 365, 385, 385

Felt pretty good.

BTW, we need a link to the previous/next day like there was before. Thanks!

The world is nothing but Staci goat. I'd better get busy.

Ewen - I've been clicking on hyperlinked dates in the little calendar on the right. I join you in missing the direct "previous day" link, however.

My personal philosophy on modifying the WOD's is to do them as close to RX'd as possible and spend the warm-up time working on skills, weak points, etc. I do this based strictly on my desire to accurately measure my progress.

I have no criticism of Moon's approach, substituting GHD sit-ups during Angie (though it was painful just to watch). My only advice would have been to record the times for each of the exercises, so you can measure your improvements. If, for example, you drop 5 minutes next time, it may not be clear whether that is due to a 4, 5, or 6-minute improvement on the sit-ups.

For this reason, I try to keep track of my split times even when doing Angie, Murph, etc., as RX'd.

Hari- definitely in for Rest Night dinner.

As to the debate about changing the workout programming- I think the usefulness of altering the workout depends not just on your basic ability to do it (as A2 suggested) and on your desire to reinforce particular weaknesses (as Moon suggested) but also on how the participant uses the numbers (time, reps, weight, etc.) in future programming.

For me, at only 3 months in to full-on CF, the numbers are an excellent goad to push harder and chase PR's. My goal right now is to do every WOD as Rx'd (hah!) and get a time I can use as a comparison/prod in the next cycle. At some point, this probably becomes boring and less productive, not just athletically (as Allison metioned) but mentally as well. It stops being as useful a goad to higher performance, even if you have a lot of room to imporve in.

I certainly found this to be true in running. You can run a 5K a hell of a lot faster than I did in HS, but that doesn't mean getting there is going to keep me interested enough to perform the necessary exercises to do so. The variability not only makes us better at a variety of things (which is great), but it also keeps me interested. This means that I keep getting the best workout because regardless of whether the WO itself is the best design (due to inherent inefficiences or those created by the participants modifications), as I am mentally committed to giving 100% effort and not just going through the motions of another (insert popular WOD here).

Hari - I completely agree. The one thing I am kicking myself about for last night's Angie is that I did not track my times for individual segments - GHD or not. That is definitely a practice worth adopting. You pretty much live 6 months into the future compared to the rest of us, don't you.

OK... so are we altering workouts because we're BORED now? We don't think the brilliant minds who do the programming for CrossFit are making things varied enough?

If you think AbMat Sit-ups are an inferior exercise why not start subbing all sorts of other things to "work the abs" better in WOD.

Take it one more step - Do 100 OHS instead of AbMat sit-ups.

Hari said it today and I think I said it yesterday - if you want or need to work a skill because you feel you're weak in that area then by all means DO IT. It's really important. Before and After the workout is probably the right time to do it.

Why do you think CrossFit has recommended the RX'd version of sit-up workouts to be done with the AbMat and not the GHD?

A2 - Based on what I have seen - and this is not a critique (how could I throw stones after yesterday?) but just an observation - you might not be the best person to take the favorable side of the "strict adherence to CrossFit programming" debate.

I think a 100 OHS sub would be going past the bounds of the ab-focused phase of Angie. I believe we are all in agreement that an "Abmat sit-up" with restrained feet and the "GHD sit-up" both focus the work on the abdominals (front, anyway) and hip flexors. An OHS goes way beyond that.

As for the opinion of the CrossFit Gods, I could speculate that the reason they made such a blanket recommendation is that Abmats are easier to acquire, store, and use while providing a good workout while GHDs are more complex, expensive and bulky. Thus, they did not want to pressure gyms to feel that sit-ups in WODs required GHDs.

I'm going to have to agree with A2 and Hari on this one. Deficient areas should be worked outside the rx wod. If you scale up it should be across all the movements.

Random question: a few weeks ago I remember someone mentioning an outdoor track in Manhattan, I think it was in the East Village. Does anyone know exactly where it is?

Thanks.

A2- I think Moon has put forward his reasoning for why he wanted to change the routine and, since I don't change it yet, except to scale down, I don't think I am a good person to speak as to why you would. However, I have expereinced burnout in other activities and extrapolating from that I can see mental reasons for wanting to alter a workout, in addition to any potential physical benefits. Heck, the basic idea of versatiliy and randomness is one of the things that drew me to Crossfit. Of course, that doesn't mean that you have to adopt that modification for all future workouts, but just because the main site says it, doesn't make it gospel (NY Times articles aside).

In reference to doing skills work before and after a WOD- I have seen a spectrum of opinions on this and little hard guidelines as to how this should be done. I have certainly tried to perform the default 3 sets of 10 of the basic movements before the WOD combined with stretching and loosening. This is hampered by limited space, time and general class schedule. However, I find that post-WOD work is hit or miss and doesn't have the drive and focus that the WOD does. Incorporating changes to the WOD may also be the most time efficient method of skills practice, if that is a serious concern to the participant.

This is all just hypothesizing on my part. I have no desire, right now, of trying 100 GHD sit ups. :)

good thing the new box is going to have all that extra space for us to work on our "goats" before and after wods.

moon's theory is kinda like the average golfer who insists on "playing from the tips" even though he has never shot par from the regular tees.

brendan...the track (east river park) is due east of 7th street through alphabet city and across the fdr.

you can also enter the path if you run east on 14th street until you reach avenue c and run north until you hit the east river....continue south....

I'm probably am the best person to take the side of strict adherence to the CrossFit Program debate.

I've tried lots of things and listened to lots of lectures about CrossFit programming.

From my own experience I've seen that I make more progress when I stick to the workouts as RX'd. In fact I made it a point to do things exactly as RX'd as soon as I possibly could. I've scaled down when I had to if I had an injury or if I simply couldn't do an exercise.

There aren't any workouts where I scale UP yet. (except maybe Grace but that's up for debate too. Tony says there's no RX'd womens weight and that I should be striving for 135#. That's not happening for a long time)

If you're talking about me not following the WOD and doing completely different workouts all together then you're right. But I'm not doing that because I think I know better and want to design my own program. It's been out of convenience and necessity. Since I started coaching I've been forced to squeeze in workouts when I can and what I do is usually dependent on what equipment I have access to and the time I have.

If I could I would follow the WOD exactly everyday. And that's exactly what I plan on doing when I get to California on the 1st.

Ask OPT, AFT, Greg, Speal..... what they do. They'll tell you CrossFit. They just follow the WOD pretty much exactly. Why does it work for them and not for you?

I highly doubt that CrossFit choose a little AbMat over a GHD because it's cheaper or easier to store. CrossFit doesn't give a crap about that. It cares about results. If the GHD was a more appropriate exercise for Angie then it would say do 100 GHD sit-ups. The suckers who don't have access to one would be forced to scale down to an abmat and wouldn't be doing it as Rx'd.

Hmm.. Ok you didn't like the OHS idea. How about doing weighted GHD sit-ups?

LADIES - I am in a DESPERATE search for two or three females to play on my zog sports, co-ed, two handed touch football game tomorrow at 3pm at 138th and Riverside Drive. It’s a great group of guys and girls and should be a lot of fun. Anyone have any interest? Please email asap at ccousins@mfglobal.com
Thank you!!

I just erased a monster (no pun intended) of a post. I'll try to repost later and get my eloquent points again. UGH

speaking of AbMat. When I am working out at nysc i jimmy-rig an AbMat with two towels.

Am I better off just doing them with nothing at all?

After doing Angie flipped (sqt, sit, push, pull, and yes Keith, you beat my weak ass 32:53) the experience was interesting. The sqts and sit went fast, then I was slowed by the pushups. In Angie, that slow down would occur after the pullups (which are also slow).

So the flip seemed more intense at first, then I needed to grind out the push/pulls.

Flipped is not the same as Angie, it is flipped.

My Angie time is my Angie time; flipped time is-etc.

Changing the exercises also makes it not Angie, and the time can not be compared. Math on the power output of a lower Angie time would be interesting to see (anyone? Hari?)

The challenge with testing oneself randomly, is that in a hopper situation u would not have a performance to compare to. So, u would have to go against someone else to see if you would "win".

That is why the named/benchmarks are critical for performance feedback.

Brendan, the track is at 6th and the East River. I usually get there by running down the east side bike trail from E23rd(its usually a 10 min run down)
the place is great because they also have pull up and paralette bars, and you can practice your kip before or after your run.

A2- I hear what you are saying about the CF Allstars and I watched the video with you and Eva, where she talks about not needing to do more than the WOD, but do it as hard as you can. It certainly works for them. But, not all of us can, or want to be, like them. They are inspirational but to achieve that level of performance would require peak level commitment, something that some people (like me) are not prepared to make. I certainly want to be more fit, which I think we can all agree will happen regardless of whether you use ab mats, GHDs or do OHS, and to do so I can see where you might want to tinker around with the programming a little.

I will likely never be in the same class as the all stars and I am ok with that. What so obviously works for their training goals, may not be the best thing for mine or Moon's or some other CF'er out there.

George- I am not as familiar with Golf as you are, but I think your analogy is a little off. I don't think using a GHD makes sense from a "make it harder" perspective, like wearing a vest does, but rather it forces you get better at one particular method of muscle recruitment. Whether this difference increases or decreases the effectiveness of the workout is certainly debatable and, again, would depend on the individual athlete.

A2 - As the program was described to me, it is doing the exercises put on the board, as RXed, in a 3 day on, 1 off manner. Deviations from this means you are not doing the program. Again, this is not meant as a slight - as you point out, sometimes other parts of life get in the way.

I gotta wrap some things up here and bolt out of town, but I'll pick up on a few of the things you said:

"How about doing weighted GHD sit-ups?"
That seems to me as it would be the same "enhancement" as doing any other aspect of Angie with a weight vest.

"Why does it work for them and not for you?"
This is Greg's warmup which he does before every workout. I don't know anyone who does this warmup ritual before their workouts, yet these other people do very well at CrossFit. I believe that there are other differences in how individuals approach multiple aspects of CrossFit.

"CrossFit doesn't give a crap about that."
I only offered a speculative guess as one that could identify a entirely different motivation that brings us to the same result. I am not going to make definitive statements as what CrossFit does and does not care about as I do not represent them.

There is also a track at riverbank park 138th west side highway. Thats where i go to the gym when i can't make it to the box. I like this track better. And there's also an ice skating rink, 2 pools, basket ball courts and partridge in a pear tree.

Everyone pretty much summed up what I was going to say about this subject. Just a couple more points though:

Moon - "I could speculate that the reason they made such a blanket recommendation is that Abmats are easier to acquire, store, and use while providing a good workout while GHDs are more complex, expensive and bulky."
If this were the case then they wouldn't post workouts with GHDs. Also, the sub for a GHD uses anchored feet and a swiss ball, not an Abmat. This is probably related to the two being different exercises.

A2 - "Ask OPT, AFT, Greg, Speal..... what they do. They'll tell you CrossFit. They just follow the WOD pretty much exactly. Why does it work for them and not for you?"

I may be mistaken but I think OPT stopped crossfitting for a while so he coupld focus on Olympic Lifting. I can't review his interview right now but they can be found here:

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

It's titled "OPT from Crossfit Calgary" and I think it's either video 3 or 4 when he talks about his training.

Coach P - I agree that a set of exercises done with subs or in a different order is a different set than the original and should be noted. This is extrememly important for comparing times and reviewing work logs

My thoughts are that as long as you're having fun then keep doing what you're doing. I (personall and do not speak for the owners of CFNYC) do not think it's a problem if you want to work on some skill sets as long as it doesn't disrupt a class.
Also some skills, mostly bodyweight, can be worked on outside of the gym. I practice handstands in the laundromat and on subway platforms when waiting for the train. I also practice pistols at the break room in my job.

In the end you should enjoy what you're doing and make sure you're getting one hell of a workout. Cause isn't that why we're here anyway? (IMHO)

Kurt: Where did you read that I expect you to perform like an AllStar? That is Not At All what I meant. I think it's silly not to strive to be your absolute best but I'm well aware that everyones absolute best is going to be different.

At my best I doubt my numbers will match Annie or Evas. So what. That's not the point. The point is the WOD as RX'd is what the top performers do. I was using them as an example of the effectiveness of the program exactly as it is.

GHD sit-ups are an option for a WOD along with the variations of the AbMat sit-up. The most important issue is what you're trying to accomplish during a named workout. If you want to have comparable results and you want to use the GHD then use the GHD every time.

If you want to work on your GHD sit-ups doing them in your warm up is the other option.

It's all going to depend on what you want your workout to be about. What are your goals??

Do you do GHD sit-ups and back "extensions" every day?? If you really want to get better at them a daily dose may be better than an occasional kick in the nuts during a WOD.

What about your training goals are not being met by the WOD as is that you feel you need to tinker with it? I think it's the exact opposite. If it works for a machine like Greg why wouldn't it work for you? What do you need that he doesn't?

Skills before and after the WOD: Don't let space or other distractions stop you from getting what you need to do done. That would be a shame.

IMO: skills like the snatch should be practiced before a WOD. After a wod is a good time to practice things like TGUs and med ball cleans. Even back extensions and stuff like that.

There was a time when I was adding things like light deads into my warm up. If you're going to tailor anything to meet your particular needs it should probably be your warm-up and cool down. Not the WOD.

Just a few quick notes:

People like Eva or Greg did NOT get where they are just by doing CF. Let's not forget that Eva was an Olympic skier once. She didn't just stand up from her couch one day and start doing thrusters. This is not to say that they didn't get in even better shape thanks to Crossfit, but you can't ignore their background. In fact, you can't ignore anybody's background, even here at the Box, when attempting to evaluate what CF has done for an individual.

Also, simply based on the videos that pop up on a regular basis, wouldn't it be fair to say that none of the people ANYC mentioned follow strictly the WOD schedule? If OPT demos a new workout or does an extra Helen once in a while, he's no longer following the program (to say nothing of whatever warm up or warm down he does).

Finally, let's not kid ourselves thinking that the main board WODs, as Rx'd, constitute an ideal program for each and every one of us. If Moon were to ask Coach Glassman to get him in the best shape of his life, one on one, no holds barred, money and time are not an issue, I doubt the answer would be "Just follow the WOD's, starting now." The CF prescription might be the best compromise for training "everyone", but that shouldn't stop us from personalizing our training. WOD's are just one aspect, and I don't think they're sacred.

This doesn't mean that anything goes and all strategies are equal. But CF is about experimenting and "black boxing". And if we're wrong, so be it. You also learn from your mistakes.

Rant rant rant yadda yadda yadda, I think I'm done for now. ;)

Interesting debate.

Here's my $0.02

Crossfit has a way of exposing your weaknesses. Everyday is a pop quiz in fitness. If you are well-prepared, then you have nothing to worry about. If you haven't done your homework, then you're f---ed. The "allstars" have all done their homework and can handle the daily challenge.

However, for the unprepared simply showing up and doing the WODs is not enough. If you can't do pullups then simply doing the WODs might not be the best way to get them. Additional homework must be done.

If your abs are weak, then the problem will show up in more WODs than just "Angie." You will notice decreased performance in "Michael" or anything with overhead squats, knees to elbows or L-pullups. If you simply perform all the ab-dominant WODs poorly that won't necessarily be a great way to improve ab strength.

My advice would be to find the one or two weaknesses that show up over and over again and do some dedicated work on them. If you can't figure it out on your own, then ask me cuz I'm keep a list on all y'all. For some people it's flexibility, for some it's pressing strength, for some it's weak abs, whatever. Once you find that weakness in your performance, make a plan to attack it a little each day. If you are weak on pullups, then make it part of your warmup to do a variety of pulling exercises to increase your strength there. If you have weak abs, then focus on them during the warmups and/or after the WODs.

Like somebody said before certain things are better addressed as warmup, certain things after WOD and somethings are better addressed in a Grease the Groove method.

On the topic of changing the WODs. I don't have a problem with somebody changing the WOD for a good reason. Rx'd is a good thing to shoot for..for some people...but not everyone is going to be able to do the WODs as Rx'd. The beauty of doing things as Rx'd is that you can compare your performances to those others that did the WOD as Rx'd. However, that's a lofty goal and unneccessary for personal development.

If a person does "Fran" with an empty barbell and jumping pullups to the best of their ability, then they've had a great workout. If they can improve on that the next time, then great. IMHO, it's better to do a modified workout with good form and good intensity than to do it poorly as Rx'd.

I don't consider changing the WOD just because you don't like a particular exercise a good reason. Like ANYC said, scaling up is appropriate when your time is so low that further improvement is unlikely.

I consider it an interesting challenge to change the WODs around if I can do the same work in a faster time. Like Angie From Behind yesterday. I also did Fran From Behind a few months ago to see how that was. In both cases I dropped my times. Working at higher intensity for me is necessary to keep improving. Even though I can't compare my scores to anyone, I'm challenging myself to do more work in less time.

I tend to think the WOD's are gospel, and fortunate that our gym strictly follows the main site. With all of the science and experience put into the planning of the main site, I will stick with those until if, sometime way down the road, they become easy. I see so many affiliates who dont follow the main site and I scratch my head at that, as I think if you follow the main site, you are actually following a periodization plan put together by people that are much smarter at this, and not just randomly throwing out gut wrenching workouts to be macho. I can see deviating from the main site for your chosen specialty sport.

1. Will Elements Advanced be mandatory, like Elements Basic, prior to being admitted into WOD?

2. Is the Summer Park Workout a WOD, and hence participation would require completion of Elements Basic?

3. What about "comp-ing" accomodations for those who have not yet started(but intend to start) or completed Elements Basic?

Sorry if these are nit-picky q's or if they've already been asked and answered(don't have time right now to read all responses that are related to this post.

Thx.

triplets

wu
245-245-245

295f-275-275-295-295-305

255, 265, 275, 285, 285(1,F)

I think it is a mistake to elevate CrossFit to a religion and/or it's top practitioners to gods, and a waste time debating the perfect way to worship.

Even if we could know with certainty that all approaches other than perfectly following the WOD as close to RX'd as possible are inferior, so what? How many people never miss a WOD? And which is a worse "sin," missing a WOD or modifying a WOD?

Moon showed up and did a more demanding version of Angie. Can he really end up less fit than if he had simply stayed home?

Coach P, writes,

"Changing the exercises also makes it not Angie, and the time can not be compared. Math on the power output of a lower Angie time would be interesting to see (anyone? Hari?)"

For a given person doing a "flipped" Angie or a Cindy-Style Angie, or any sequence involving the full number of reps of each exercise, the work is identical. The power is simply the work divided by time.

To compute the power ratio for two different times, the greater power output associated with the faster time relative to the lesser power associated with the slower time, take the ratio (slow time / fast time).

For example, it you did Angie forward in 25 minutes and Angie backwards in 20 minutes, the power output going backwards is 25/20 = 1.25 times the power output going forward.

225lbs - 5x3

Deadlifts: 3-3-3-3-3

315
325 (completed but didn't like form compromise)
315
320
325