that Jon Gilson article is OUTSTANDING and should be mandatory reading for every pre teen girl. i will save it for my daughters. thx keith for posting that.

Mr Robert Zilla, Re: yesterday's body map request...

http://exrx.net/Exercise.html

On the left you'll see muscle body maps (male/female) and exercise body maps (male/femal). Click on the one you want. Click anywhere on the bodies and hey-presto there's the muscle and everything you might want to know about it. (keep clicking on anything BLUE including the muscle name at the top, and it'll take you to further information)

There's also a million one other things on this website... some interesting, some not so...

I know you purists out there may get upset by this website's information on machine use, but to be fair it gives info on many possible methods of exercising the muscle including body weight stuff and it's corresponding stretches. It also gives good clear diagrams, and tells you what that particular muscle is for. Mainly I use it for the clear simple muscle diagrams and info. Pick a muscle map and click away to your hearts content...

Im all for the baring of the breasts...
no seriously i get it.

Grace: 4:00 (subbed 82#)

then Isabel: 8:59 (subbed 115#)

Snatch and jerk are particularly ugly. Need to work on OHS to get comfortable.

Thanks for the tips Adam.

4:49 Sub 75 lbs

Thanks for the instruction, Adam

i know that my response to kurt's questions yesterday may have been a bit off putting, so thanks to all the friendly crossfitters for giving "real" answers to kurt.

it really is something you need to experience, though. you are not on your own at crossfit and if you are new to it and you think that you are getting anything even close to a real crossfit workout on your own, you are mistaken.

i am a personal trainer and began doing the crossfit workouts on my own for about a month before going to the box and it was a rude awakening when i went and discovered how much i didn't (and still don't) know. i have improved greatly, but i still go everyday and the 5 trainers teach me something new everytime i go. not to mention the support and friendships that i have created.

the most important thing crossfit has taught me is humility. i have walked out of there almost in tears at times from feeling i wasn't improving or wasn't learning, but i quickly discover that i come back stronger the next day. those of you who know me, know that i would (and have) spent way too much time at the box, but it has truely changed my life. crossfit is the best thing ever.

if only i could start running again. guess i should get on that if i want to enjoy the marathon this year...

btw...
yesterday

65#
7:09

thought it was great until "injured" allison beat me by almost 2 min with the same weight

Man, I don't plan to be a gadfly around here, but to quote navyseals.com, "We are a private organization with no formal affiliation with the United States Navy." So, Kurt, if you're still reading, be aware that a private organization with no formal affiliation with the United States Navy is willing to take your money. Hope that makes you feel better.

Crossfit contains some great ideas, but there's so much bullshit gathered around it that it's often very hard to take. It's going to be fun when Glassman faces a Curves-like scandal as people realize where their money is going.

Wow, I didn't expect, or intend, to start this much controversy. I am glad that in the previous thread some of the people who have attended the elements class gave me some insight into its structure and their comments on it. To those who answered my questions, I appreciate your taking the time to do so.

As to the discussion of customer service, which, coincidently or not, is featured in an article on today's WOD section, I was a bit surprised by the initial reaction I had to what I considered legitimate and polite questions. I understand that Crossfit is an experience as much as a method of physical and mental strengthening, but the box doesn't have a corner on the market. Heck, it isn't even the only NYC affiliate anymore (Brooklyn was just approved).

As a comparison to what happened here, when I emailed Ronin Athletics to ask a few questions about their BJJ and Muay Thai training, one of the instructors emailed me back within 24 hours with a complete set of answers, followed by a "call me with any other questions but definitely come for a free class before you decide." They were not very high on my list of potentials, but that shot them right up!

I wouldn't presume to tell you how to run your business. I am not a trainer or a gym owner and, heck, I am not even that fit. But, if my response to well reasoned inquiries about my legal practice were met with either a spam email or "shut up and get to my office" there wouldn't be that long a line once you got here. Maybe that is just the way you want it and the Box is a tight family of seriously committed individuals who don't need outsiders coming in to swell the ranks. That's cool and I can see the benefits in only training with people you know and trust. But, I did want to offer what I hope might be some constructive criticism on other available strategies.

I don't want this board to devolve into a battle about me or a discussion about gym business models, so if you want to talk, suggest, encourage, flame, yell or whatever to me directly, feel free to email me at: Kurt_Tullar@yahoo.com.

As to coming by, I definitely plan to do so this week. I have been on enough first dates to know that initial impressions may not be accurate. I respect all of you and look forward to getting the chance to meet some of you in person. Marisela, I hope I can run into you at the box, shake your hand and get some of that intensity into my workout. Have a great weekend!

David,

"So, Kurt, if you're still reading, be aware that a private organization with no formal affiliation with the United States Navy is willing to take your money. Hope that makes you feel better."

Doesn't just about the entire world economy have no formal affiliation with the US Navy. What exactly is your point?

Let's not be disingenuous. As presented, the link implied some form of official support from US Navy Seals.

Now can this shit stop, or rather not start up again?

for whatever it's worth, i think we can take it as a fact that crossfit enjoys widespread support in the SF community. you could cite, for example, the SEALs that came in and worked out at the Box earlier this year (i still speak of them and their WOD performances in hushed tones). or think of dave castro, the MC at crossfit certs, who is a BUD/s instructor. of course, that's not to say that doing crossfit will make you an indestructible commando or anything. it's just part of the cachet. maybe navyseals.com is a business cannily targeting all the wanna-bes who want a trident badge, but was keith mistaken in posting that link? nah.

also: anybody who'd be caught unawares by, say, the news that glassman donates to the GOP or something would have to be entirely unfamiliar with the articles he posts on crossfit.com rest days. where's the potential for scandal there?

oh, and isabel scaled to 95lbs: 9:51. suck :(

I think a lot of this comes from communications via the internet... Tone and humor don't tend to lend itself well during conversations through a message board. I think thats why I would say, for anyone, come on down and check us out. You would see that we are pretty much idiots, and don't take ourselves too seriously until its time to put in work. I've been around cfnyc longer than most here and have to say I haven't met a greater bunch of people to sweat and bleed with. Anyone that decides to workout at the Box and come and join will realize this. I know it can be off putting at first, but believe me, what you see here isn't always what you get when you show up in person. Anyone from the outside who criticizes, doesn't really know what they are talking about and is what the kids like to call a "hater"...

And, damn its been about 2 weeks since I've been in.. Vacations and sickness have taken its toll, and Im going to be a quivering mess the first few days back. Thankfully my diet has been decent, but I fear Monday!

so theres a CF Brooklyn now? I say we pay a visit..
Ill make a casserole.

The great thing about the internet is that anybody can say anything. The bad thing about the internet is that anybody can say anything.

People should be aware of the David's of the world who sling accusations anonymously without any repercussions. The Davids of the world are cowards. Their words and actions speak of their pettiness. He is fascinated by our tribe, he trolls our site, but since he is not a member he feels that he must try to do us harm and jab at us. To what end? So he can sit smugly in his living room and feel a sense of satisfaction knowing he slandered our business, hurt our feelings and besmirched our name.

As for customer service. I try to serve all my customers. However, we do not market. We do not do the "hard sell." Kurt, if you feel that you didn't get a fast enough response. I apologize. I'm busy. I don't coddle. If you come in and do not get the best training you've ever had, then you are free to go elsewhere. There is a lot of information on our website. Clearly trolls like David can learn about everything that goes on here, so can you.

We here at The Box are a tribe. You can get a sense of the solidarity of this community by the impassioned responses that are posted here. That speaks to our customer loyalty and satisfaction.

Unfortunately, the reality is that the internet is swamped with Kurts and Davids and rarely, if ever, do they show their faces. Their voices are loud on the internet but seldom heard in person.

Another thing that you want to consider is that we offer EIGHT FREE classes every month. We don't even watch to see whether you are putting a dollar in the water jar. How many free sessions do you get at your globo gym?

What does David offer? Not a goddamn thing! How much pro bono legal advice does Kurt hand out over emails to strangers? Probably not a lot. Yet he expects everyone to drop what they are doing to convince him to workout because he does not have the self-motivation to come in and try a free class.

We feel that working out in the CrossFit methodology is "experiential." You only get the benefit of it by doing it---Not by talking about it!

We are always here to answer your questions and to give you a workout. You can get a lot of face to face time with us--moreso than with trainers at globo gyms. The onus is on you to take the step to come in and try it for yourself then make your judgments based on personal experience, not on emails or hypotheticals.

It's great that you guys learned how to write just like Glassman...calling critics of your crappy customer service "cowards" is especially cute. Looks like I'll be sending people to Crossfit Brooklyn, assuming they have a better idea on how to run a business.

Un. fucking. believable.

I hate to always be the scold on this forum, but holy shit! I'm staggered at the response to Kurt, who wrote in with some BASIC questions about what his money was going to get him, then faced a veritable wall of indifference with a few striations of hostility. Then Kurt graciously writes back with a few more comments, shows far more grace than I would be inclined to show at that point, and what does he get in return? One of the most intemperate responses I can imagine.

I am not posting this anonymously, and let me be completely unequivocal: Kurt has received, in total, deplorably bad treatment from Crossfit NYC, and were I in his shoes I wouldn't spend one red cent there.

Crossfit is undeniably effective. Crossfit NYC has a great community. And Crossfit NYC has excellent trainers, Keith among them, but on the evidence at hand, Crossfit NYC has a customer service problem, and a damn big one at that.

We're all on the inside, and we know how great it can be. But put yourself in Kurt's shoes. He's being asked to spend a chunk of money that isn't entirely trivial. And he wants to know what he's going to get. He is not on the inside, and thus isn't in possession of what we know. It's a natural and ordinary thing to do: Ask a about what your money is going to get you. In fact, it's the responsible thing to do. Any one of us would probably laugh at any friend who was about to drop $300 on some niche workout that made a lot of grandiose claims for itself. Keep in mind that he does not yet know what we know. It is any responsible person's duty to do a little investigating first. Round one is to ask some questions. Round two is to come in and try it out. We've taken anyone asking about round one and told them to go shove it. We have to fight the mainstream workout wisdom all the time, but there is no reason to be so tetchy about it. It's almost as if Kurt is bearing the brunt of that effort.

But it doesn't even have to be that high falutin. If someone inquires about a business and meets indifference and derision, you can be damn well assured they will go somewhere else. And they should.

Come on guys! It's a good group of people at Crossfit NYC, but we're putting on a particularly bad showing here.

Let the record show that an attempt was made to answer his questions in a prompt manner. If I had the time, I would have responded to his second email. However, Kurt was unsatisfied with the response and chose to post his questions on the blog. Note that two free beginner classes have passed since he sent his first email and he chose to attend neither of them.

from Kurt Tullar hide details Sep 19 (4 days ago)
to info@crossfitnyc.org
cc keith@crossfitnyc.com
date Sep 19, 2007 5:26 PM
subject October Elements course
signed-by yahoo.com
First off, thanks for having a Crossfit gym reasonably close to where I live! I got into Crossfit through American Parkour and I have become a convert to the system. I started doing scaled workouts about a month ago and love the results and, more importantly, the challenge. However, I have some serious technical issues with some of the movements and don't want to push myself on them and end up either ingraining bad habits into muscle memory or, worse, injuring myself. Therefore, I would like to take some classes at your gym and nail down my technique.

I came to your page from the Crossfit main page and I saw that you offer an Elements class. As I understand it, the new student enrolls in either A or B and then comes for four weeks on the designated days to the Elements classes, which last about an hour. The class costs 150 for the full month and after the month is over you take the Total test which allows entry to the WOD classes. Please correct any misconceptions I have have, but, based upon these assumptions I have a few questions:

1. Can I switch between days? For instance, if I join the B class, but have to skip a thursday workout because my day job leaves me chained to the desk, can I show up to A's class on Friday to do a make-up?

2. What do the classes actually consist of? I am looking for instruction on olympic and power lifts, kipping pull ups and basic correction of form for all of the various exercises.

3. Will we be doing scaled or full WOD's during the class?

4. If we don't do the WOD during class, is it alright to stay after class and do it?

5. When do I have to have the paypal payment in to start the Oct. class?

Sorry for the barrage of questions and thanks for taking the time to answer them.

Respectfully,

Kurt Tullar

date Sep 20, 2007 4:13 PM
subject Re: October Elements course
mailed-by gmail.com
Kurt
Thank you for your email inquiry and congratulations on taking an
interest in elite fitness!

The Black Box is New York's first and only CrossFit affiliate. We
pride ourselves on being a tough, no-nonsense gym that gets you in
shape. We discourage whining. No matter where you start, we'll take
you to a higher level.

We deliver a type of fitness that is broad and inclusive and based on
a program of varied, if not random, functional movements done at high
intensity.

For more information on CrossFit and and a general overview of what
we do, please follow these links:

- http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/start-how.html
- http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/what-crossfit.html

For scheduling information for CrossFit NYC: The Black Box:

- http://www.crossfitnyc.org/archives/2007/07/new_beginners_p.html

For payment go here:

- https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr

---

Here are some FAQs:

Q. Do I need experience or some minimum level of fitness?
A. No. We will scale all workouts and exercises to your level.
We've had eighty-five year old grandmothers, and morbidly obese
people, and they've been fine. You will too.

Q. How do I start?
A. Come to a free beginner's class: Wednesdays at 6pm, or Saturdays
at 10am.

Q. The beginner's class was great, how do I join as a member?
A. First you must complete the one-month Elements Workshop series:
http://www.crossfitnyc.org/archives/2007/07/new_beginners_p.html

Q. I'm really fit and would like to skip the beginner's class and
come to the WOD class, can I do that?
A. No. There are no drop-ins to the WOD classes. You must complete
our one-month Elements Workshop before being allowed to take WOD
classes.

Q. But what if I'm really, really fit?
A. No means no. If you are really, really fit, we can scale up the
workouts in the Elements & Beginner's classes for you. We promise we
can leave you lying on the floor, sore and gasping, after even a
beginners class.

Q. What if I can't fit it into my schedule? Do you do private sessions?
A. Absolutely. Please contact keith@crossfitnyc.com,
court@crossfitnyc.com, or allison@crossfitnyc.com for private
instruction.

Q. Do you take credit cards?
A. You can pay online through paypal (see link above). If you come
to the gym, please bring cash.

Q. Can I have a receipt?
A. If you want a receipt, please pay through paypal.

Q. Do you have showers?
A. Unfortunately, no. We're working on it, but not quite yet.

Q. Can I just come to The Black Box and workout on my own?
A. No. We are more like a dojo, than a globo gym. We offer classes
and one-on-one sessions, where people work out under trainer
supervision, as it yields better, safer, and faster results than
having people simply use the facility by themselves.

--
"We're changing the world. We're doing all the right things for all
the right people for all the right reasons. And it's a load of fun."
Coach Greg Glassman.

"Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in
general." Coach Mark Rippetoe

CrossFit NYC: The Black Box
1026 Sixth Avenue, Rm 401
New York, NY 10018
info@crossfitnyc.com
www.crossfitnyc.com
myspace.com/crossfitnyc

to Coach Keith
date Sep 20, 2007 11:58 PM
subject Re: October Elements course
signed-by yahoo.com
Coach,

Thank you for your prompt response, but I have reviewed both the NYC site and the main site and I don't believe the individual questions I emailed you were addressed there or by what was provided in your email. Would these questions simply be better asked at a beginner's class? Should I just post the questions to the forum?

Kurt

David

cow·ard /ˈkaʊərd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kou-erd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.

I am not calling you a coward for being a critic. The whole point of having a Black Box model is that we are constantly changing and adjusting to make things better. Therefore, the very name and model invites criticism.

You are coward because you sit there and pass judgment anonymously. You are a coward because you are afraid to show your face in an environment where people have pride and honor. You are coward because you are afraid to put yourself out there and subject yourself to criticism.

Notice how I did not delete your obnoxious posts. That would be cowardly. I value this opportunity for us to debate this openly even if you are afraid to post your real name and email. I will look hard at our business model and it will improve. I'm not afraid to have our own members chastise me on the board. I'm willing to go out on a limb. I'm willing to face you or anybody in public. What are you willing to do? Can you do more than post nasty anonymous comments on the internet?

Keith, following in Greg Glassman's obnoxious footsteps of name calling and so on isn't helping, as was noted above by Dan O. Actually, if you want to hew to the Crossfit way, you probably should delete my comments: that's how Glassman runs his message board whenever he comes off looking badly.

You're not in the Marines, you run a gym in New York, and this talk about cowardice and honor and so on is idiotic. I assume you'll invite me to fight you in the parking lot next.

I'd honestly rather you had handled this much better as I like having the option of sending people to Crossfit NYC when they inquire about the program. Despite your blather, I get the impression that you'll handle future inquiries much more professionally, which is ultimately what's important.

Meanwhile, as noted, I'll be doing my best to increase membership at Xfit Brooklyn when it becomes an option.

ah, still here are you "david".

I mean, I assume that when you address people you want them to read what you have to say. Maybe you don't. Would make about as much sense as anything I've seen here in the past few days.

for someone who has such a negative opinion about it, you sure spen a lot of time here. i can't really understand your motivation, though. mine is simply a love for crossfitnyc.
i apologized to everyone for my shortness and even apologized to keith for starting this whole thing. keith is only defending himself from a person hell-bent on seeing keith's business fail.
i do hope to meet kurt soon and shake his hand. but you are an enigma. sadly, an enigma with a lot of hate. we are all entitled to have a bad day now and again, of which i have had many recently, but you really seem to be hostile in a passive aggressive manner. i can see that you have the ability to write, but do you have the ability to read? a lot of things were written with the lack of tone and it is difficult to tell what meanings or hurmors are hidden and one would not understand without going to the box. a lack of understanding of what had happened prior to the first post is what a lot of people here are responding to. i have read all the things that people have written and created an opinion based on what i KNOW. things that i knew before i responded to kurts first post.
i will refrain from responding to any of your natter, "david", for i see you are trying to show crossfit in a bad light for whatever reason. i wish you the best and hope that one day you have the courage and honor to put a face to your opinions.

farewell

You seem a little intent on making things up about people who disagree with you Marisela. Thus far, you've imagined that I've never done crossfit, that I go to a dumbell curl-loving gym, that I hate Crossfit, that I want CFNY to fail, and so on. It seems inconceivable to you that someone could be annoyed by the macho posturing that mars the main Crossfit site, and seems to have bled over to Xfit NY.

Any reasonable business would have, at this point, apologized to Kurt and offered him a free lesson or something to make up for this horrible experience. I look forward to hearing what happens, after y'all cool off and knock off the posturing.

And again, you're not Marines. Leave the courage and honor talk to people who do a little bit more than run gyms.

Oh, and Kurt...I do hope to hear how your experience goes. I suspect that, face-to-face, you're going to encounter much nicer people than one would expect from the goings on here.

Sadly, Greg Glassman's adolescent attitude seems as viral as his (vastly better) ideas on fitness and marketing, and this wouldn't bet the first time that perfectly nice people got sucked into his pointless "I wish I'd been a Navy Seal instead of a girls' gymnastic coach" fantasies.

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